Seeing that Huang Liji was silent, Zhu Youzhen put down his hands, pressed them on the table again, and said: "I think that history has its inevitability, and if we continue to govern this country in the same way as before, then we will not be able to jump out of the historical circle of the cycle of chaos."

So something can be predicted, maybe ten years, maybe twenty years, maybe decades later, if I'm lucky, maybe I don't have to see the most tragic end.

But for the Ming Dynasty, as long as the contradiction between limited land and rapidly growing population cannot be resolved, some things cannot be avoided. At that time, everyone in the country from top to bottom will fall into the Shura field, and no one will be able to escape the judgment of history.

Mr. Huang is familiar with the scene of the change of dynasty, and he should know more about it than I do. I think that even if Mr. Huang doesn't think about himself, he should think about his children and grandchildren, do you really want them to struggle to survive in the troubled times? ”

Lu Qi, who was standing in the corner, quietly buried his head down, if it was possible, he would prefer that he was not in this room at all. It is not new for the Ming Emperor to talk to Shoufu secretly, but it is a bit sensational to talk about how long the Ming Dynasty can exist.

Not only Lu Qi was shocked, but even Huang Liji, who listened to Chongzhen's story, was also full of uneasiness. He thought about it for a long time, but he still felt that his heart was in turmoil, and he didn't understand how to answer the question raised by the emperor at all.

The historical law of the cycle of chaos, the contradiction between limited land and growing population, the literati of all generations did not lack research on these two problems, but no one has ever found a solution to these two problems, or even the right way.

How could he find the answer to a question that he had been studying for so long and could not find an answer to? Huang Li said slowly and hesitantly: "What Your Majesty just said is inevitably terrifying. As long as Your Majesty works hard and the court unites, maybe things won't come that far.

In the past year, hasn't the situation of my Ming Dynasty improved? Perhaps, as long as the economic policy formulated by His Majesty continues, Daming can get through this current difficulty..."

Zhu Youzhen raised his hand and interrupted Shoufu's words rather rudely, and he said with an unhappy face: "Mr. Huang, can you convince yourself of the reason you just said?"

Although the policy of building water conservancy and promoting industry and commerce in the past year can alleviate the current contradictions in the Ming Dynasty, it is only a symptom rather than a root cause.

First, the construction of water conservancy can increase grain production, but it cannot solve the problem of wealth distribution. Landless peasants will never own land, and an increase in grain production, although it will cause grain prices to fall, will be a disaster for landless and landless peasants. ”

Huang Liji couldn't help but interrupt Chongzhen and said: ""Hanshu Food and Goods Chronicles" said: It is very expensive and hurts the people; It is very cheap and hurts the peasants. If the people are injured, they will be scattered, and if the peasants are injured, the country will be poor. But for the Ming Dynasty now, high food prices are a big problem. As long as the people can buy food, there will be no chaos in the world. ”

Zhu Youzhen, who was interrupted, was not displeased, but explained: "The problem is that when the "Hanshu Food and Goods Chronicle" was written, there were still many places in the world that could be cultivated, not like the current Ming Dynasty, where most of the land was in the hands of wealthy families.

These wealthy families depress grain prices at harvest time and raise grain prices when they are not in good stock, artificially creating fluctuations in grain prices. Through this price difference, they make windfall profits when the year is good, and plunder the land of small farmers when the year is bad.

The construction of water conservancy may bring some benefits to poor households in the short term, but in the long run, it will only exacerbate the artificial volatility of food prices, and in the end only the wealthy families will benefit.

When the land is in the hands of a small number of people, the hoarding of food will inevitably cause some people to override the others. We can go without salt for a month, but can we go without food for three days?

Farmers cannot survive without land, and water conservancy construction will not solve this problem. Therefore, I believe that the construction of water conservancy cannot solve the current problems of the Ming Dynasty. ”

Huang Liji's mind kept turning, he heard something from the emperor's words, which seemed to help solve the current problems of the Ming Dynasty, his eyes suddenly lit up, and he said involuntarily: "Your Majesty, just now you said that because my land capacity in the Ming Dynasty is limited, when the population continues to grow, it will be because it is impossible to support these increased populations, so there will be a great chaos in the world."

But we can get these people into workshops and mines. A cotton textile workshop alone accommodates hundreds of people, and these cotton textile workshops in the capital absorb nearly 10,000 people. Can't we use these workshops and minerals to accommodate the peasants who have lost their land? ”

In a hurry, the more Huang Liji thought about it, the more he felt that vigorously opening workshops and mines could solve the problem of the population that the land could not accommodate, so as to find a way out for the growing population of the Ming Dynasty.

Huang Liji's performance also surprised Chongzhen, sure enough, the bureaucrats who can do the first assistant have never lacked wisdom, what they lack is just the motivation to do things. If it weren't for his persecution today, I'm afraid this Ming Shoufu wouldn't have thought about it at all, and Daming could still have such a masochistic problem for a few years.

However, Huang Liji's enlightenment reduced Chongzhen's troubles a lot, at least he didn't have to persuade this Shoufu Lord to stand up and support the establishment of industry and commerce.

Zhu Youzhen nodded at Huang Li with deep agreement, and then said: "What Mr. Huang thinks is similar to me, using the establishment of industry and commerce to absorb the population that cannot be accommodated on the land. But if we do open so many workshops, then there is a key question, who are we going to sell the products to? ”

Huang Liji was immediately asked, as a typical Ming bureaucrat, he would never think about the problems that this kind of businessman should consider. He recalled it carefully before he said, "To whom is this product sold, isn't it sold to those merchants?" The imperial court didn't have to think about it so carefully, right? ”

Zhu Youzhen smiled and said: "This industry and commerce are not comparable to agriculture, and the grain harvested in agriculture can not be sold, at least they can eat themselves." But industry and commerce are different, and the products produced cannot be sold, so they cannot be eaten.

If we only consider setting up a few workshops to raise these surplus population, how many people can we raise with the ability of the imperial court? Only when we have identified the sales market can we guide the capital to invest in setting up factories, so that those factories can support themselves with profits after they are operational. And only then will the population of the Ming Dynasty become a wealth of the Ming Dynasty rather than a burden. ”

Huang Liji thought about it for a long time, and had to admit that what Chongzhen said was very logical, but it also showed that he and the emperor's idea of using industry and commerce to absorb the surplus population was the same as the emperor's idea.

Huang Liji simply asked the emperor: "Then from Your Majesty's point of view, what should be done to truly resolve the contradiction between limited land and unlimited population growth?" ”

Zhu Youzhen pondered his thoughts before he spoke: "I think there are two ways out, one is to migrate to overseas desert islands, so as to reduce the pressure of the rapid growth of my Ming population.

The second is to vigorously develop industry and commerce to absorb the peasants who have lost their land. But the former needs capital, while the latter needs capital and the market.

Needless to say, about the funds, most of the investment in various workshops in the past year has come from the wealthy merchants of the Xun family, and neither the imperial court nor the ordinary people can afford this money.

As for the market, I can talk to Shousuke. In the past year, we have set up two types of workshops, one is heavy industry and the other is light industry.

Heavy industry is coal, iron, cement and other industrial and mining industries, these industries have a large investment, and the products produced cannot be directly consumed, but most of them are used as means of production or raw materials for other workshops. If you want to promote the development of such an industry, you must be organized and guided by the imperial court and given certain support.

For example, the construction of water conservancy and the construction of railways and roads, which we are now vigorously promoting, is in fact creating a market for these heavy industries. But Mr. Huang, as the first assistant, you should also know that the funds invested in these constructions are actually only a small part of the funds from the imperial court, and most of them are borrowed funds, if we can't change this situation, then such a huge and continuous investment is obviously unsustainable. ”

Zhu Youzhen paused when he said this, looked at the face of Shoufu on the other side, and found that although the other party frowned, he did not mean to object, so he continued.

"As for the light industry, these industries have a small investment, quick results, and a short time to recover costs. Most of the products they produce are directly oriented to people from all walks of life and are goods that are directly used for daily consumption.

For example, the textile, food, paper and other industries are light industries. Although the development of light industry is faster than that of heavy industry, and the threshold is not high, there is one biggest obstacle in Daming. ”

Huang Liji, who was listening intently to Chongzhen's explanation, suddenly heard Chongzhen pause, and he couldn't help asking: "What is the obstacle that Your Majesty is talking about?" ”

Zhu Youzhen looked at Shoufu's eyes and was silent for a long time before he said quietly and clearly: "The biggest obstacle is that the wealth of my Ming Dynasty is concentrated in the hands of some people, and the people at the bottom are poor and have no ability to consume the products produced by light industry.

If we want to absorb the surplus population with the mill mines, at least let the people at the bottom get their own land, so that they can exchange their harvest for the products produced by the workshop. ”

Hearing that Chongzhen had been around for a long time, and still pointed the contradiction to the gentry class, Huang Liji's face was very bad, and he said with a somewhat stiff face: "Your Majesty, even if the minister is willing to break his bones, this thing can't be done." It is a trivial matter for the ministers to lose their reputation, but I am afraid that the Ming Dynasty's Jiangshan Sheji will also be shaken. ”