The "Great Scourge" Marx finally couldn't help it and proposed: "Mr. Windsor, your explanation of the process of biological evolution is very wonderful and very materialistic, have you ever thought that the development of human society is also a materialistic process, just like evolution?" ”

Among the people present, only Wood, the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, the current chairman of the Indian Control Committee, knows more about the two of them, and Victoria is a princess, but she is still young and does not care about politics. Hugo and Alexandre Dumas, two republican exile literati, also had some knowledge of Marne.

During the European Revolution, the two founded the Neue Rheinische Zeitung in Cologne, the industrial center of Germany, as democrats. Napoleon invited him to Paris, but Louis later became a counter-revolutionary, and Marne was forced into exile again, eventually choosing England, the most free-speech country of the era, as his base base.

Marx's theory of the antagonism between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie was extremely inflammatory, and his advocacy of violent revolution made Louis even more incendiary. Napoleon and other political forces felt threatened. Hugo also advocated violence, but Hugo's violence was for democracy, and after democracy, the bourgeoisie was completely deprived of its political status, and he never thought about it.

Downing didn't want to talk about general social materialism, just like he didn't want to say that there is a general "there must be life and death" and "there must be a spear and a shield", he likes to speak with reason and evidence, and not to use "too high" philosophical levels to go above and below, because too high a level is easy to be misinterpreted, and the more things that are always correct, the less practical they are. So he asked Marx exactly what aspect of human society he was referring to.

Marx: "It refers to the social system, the human system has gone through four stages: primitive society, slave society, feudal society and capitalism, I think they have internal laws, that is: the productive forces determine the relations of production, and the economic base determines the political system. I don't know if you've heard our ** theory about human society? We prophesy that capitalism will inevitably be replaced. ”

Downing: "What are the inner laws?" What are the productive forces of primitive society, slave society, feudal society and capitalism? How do they determine these four systems? ”

Marx: "Primitive society is the most backward era of productive force, due to the extreme scarcity of materials, the whole society must adopt public ownership, all members of the food to ensure the survival of members of society, the biggest feature of the social system of primitive society is public ownership."

With the increasing development of production experience, primitive people's hunting tools have made great progress, and there is a surplus of prey caught, and the leaders of some tribes can share more food, and private ownership is born. The surplus animals caught were left idle, raised, and it was discovered that they could reproduce, and the breeding industry was born. The collected plant seeds were discarded on the ground after they could not be eaten, and new edible plants were grown, and the cultivation industry was born. The development of the private economy was unbalanced among the tribes, and the backward tribes took the risk to wage war, and primitive wars appeared, and the wars between the tribes led to the creation of prisoners of war, and thus slavery and slavery were born.

As the productive forces continued to develop, the captured prisoners of war had a way out - they could redeem themselves with their goods, and as a result, there were fewer and fewer slaves whose living conditions were extremely miserable, and human society entered a feudal society. In the Middle Ages, transportation and communication were difficult, and the monarch could not directly control every territory, so the territory was given to the nobles according to the high ground of the title, which was feudalism. The most important means of production in this era was land, and economic and political activities centered around the territory and land. Feudal hierarchy is a feature of the politics of this era.

In the feudal era, the productive forces developed to the point where the problem of eating was basically solved, and the weight of this field belonging to the industrial category in the economy began to rise. From the 12th century onwards, the price of wool products gradually increased. The enclosure movement began to emerge in Europe. The enclosure movement was the process of high-yield pastures crowding out arable land and forcing peasants to leave the land, the first wave was sheep pastures, followed by the rise of various high-yield handicrafts, and the difference in income caused more peasants to leave the land and become wage workers, that is, proletarians working for the capitalists who controlled the means of production.

The enclosure movement coincided with the beginning of the Age of Discovery. Britain is surrounded by the sea and has a natural advantage in the Age of Discovery, and after years of struggle, they finally defeated the Spanish Imperial Navy and became the master of the Age of Discovery, which means that the wealth after integrating the resources of the global colonies continued to flow into Britain, making England the most powerful country in capital, and the desire for productivity of capital eventually gave birth to the Industrial Revolution, and the capitalists who mastered the most important economic resources eventually became the masters of politics.

The most important feature of the capitalist era is the factory mode of production and the main contradiction between it: the capitalist and the worker. The capitalist takes profit as his duty, the cost of the machine is fixed, and the lower the worker's wage, the more beneficial it is for the capitalist, so the capitalist will do his best to squeeze the labor of the worker. In the capitalists' parliament, there is no place for the working class to speak at all. The working class is in a brutal position of exploitation. Our ideal is to break the monopoly of the capitalists on political resources and realize a truly democratic society with the proletariat as the ruler, the capitalists are a minority after all, and the bourgeois democracy is not a real democracy. ”

There are either capitalists or aristocrats, or well-to-do middle class, and the middle class also has the right to vote, and Marx is talking about overthrowing the rule of the bourgeoisie, which gives people an extremely disobedient feeling. Engels found that everyone's expressions were not good, and secretly complained that it was bad, and hurriedly made a round: "We just want to have an academic discussion, and I hope that the elites of the academic circles can uphold a fair attitude and talk together about whether the country with the proletariat as the main ruling body is the future trend." ”

Wood, the authentic bourgeois ruler, couldn't hold it and sneered: "Ignore Mr. Marx's theory, right, what will your so-called proletariat do when it comes to power?" Confiscate all our property, right? You are not a democracy, but a robber, and public ownership is a robber, forcibly turning other people's private property into your own. ”

Marx was not at all angry by the stern rebuke of this high-ranking government official, and said indifferently: "Personal gains and losses are not within the scope of my debate, and we will only talk about the development direction of the entire human society in the future, decades or even centuries." ”

Engels still liked to play a round game, saying: "Yes, yes, it is purely a discussion of the future, and when we say that the proletariat is in power, it is not to divide the property of the propertied people, it is really hooligans and robbers, what we want to fight for the workers is the political position, which means that the ten-hour working day and other systems will be passed in Congress, it means that wages will be raised, working conditions will be improved, and so on." ”

Marx is a rigorous thinking, resolute attitude of the person, he was unwilling to talk to the capitalists, but in his heart Downing is not only a capitalist, but also a big scientist, a big philanthropist, the theory of evolution is too amazing, he can't help but want to communicate with it, I hope that the two of them will privately do academic exchanges on the theory of evolution and the "evolution" of human society, the current scene of capitalists and aristocrats is something he did not expect, so he thinks that this trip to the garden will not be satisfactory, His attitude was that he was not at all happy to talk to a scathing politician like Wood.

Darwin said mildly: "If, as Mr. Engels said, you can form a workers' party and legitimately win seats in the National Assembly, but I have heard that you are advocating violent revolution, and that public ownership is not as simple as improving the working conditions, is it?" ”

Engels was relatively strong at debating with people, and he was not as thorough as Marx, and he was only willing to talk to Downing or people in academia. Engels responded to Darwin's accusations: "Because the existing parliamentary system is unfair to the proletariat, only those who have assets and income can vote, and to become a parliamentarian it requires a large amount of property, and the representative system actually excludes all the proletariat from the core of power, and cannot legally win political power, just as in the royal society before 1688, the current political structure needs to be subverted, and the bourgeoisie will not let go of vested interests lightly."

As for public ownership, this is a more advanced system that can eliminate the exploitation of the proletariat by the bourgeoisie, and I think this is a point of contention, and we believe that public ownership is more conducive to economic development. It is more effective to use the subjective initiative of human beings to adjust the direction of the economy and formulate a scientific plan to develop the economy than to develop the economy blindly.

For example, we all know the role of railways in promoting the economy, and if the railways are vigorously built by the state plan, the construction of a developed railway network will be completed faster than the capitalists. Another example is that the living conditions of coal miners are extremely poor, and the proletarian power will not hesitate to raise the wages and working conditions of the miners. In addition, under the capitalist system, most of the factory profits are obtained by the capitalists, and the capitalists' consumption power is limited, with the continuous increase of production capacity, there will be overproduction, there will be an economic crisis, the state under the public ownership system will let the factory profits evenly distribute to each worker, the state has a strong consumption power, can greatly increase the speed of economic development. ”

Mr. Wood liked to sneer the most, and when he heard this, he sneered again: "Mr. Engels, our Earl has just killed God with the theory of evolution, but you want to play God again?" If the profits of the factory are evenly distributed among the workers, then who wants to open this factory? Only God can conjure up such a 'good' factory, right? What rich person would want to open such a factory for you? ”

Engels had a good temper, and he did not have a quick eye with Wood, and calmly retorted: "The state in power of the proletariat will be responsible for investing in such factories." ”

Wood: "Well, I can guarantee that you will not be in power, because thousands of people with property like me will defend their property with their lives, because to come to power means to plunder our property by all means, and all normal people will not vote for you." ”

Engels: "Don't forget, Mr. Wood, that the proletariat is much more numerous than the capitalists, and with their awakening we will become more and more powerful. The future belongs to the proletariat! I also have my own factory, but I know my destiny, and I am willing to follow the trend of history instead of being cannon fodder of history. ”

Although Engels was very restrained, he still accidentally used the word "cannon fodder", which triggered Wood's huge affection, his beard was blown up, and the debate almost turned into a personal vendetta between him and Engels.

As the owner, Tang Ning hurriedly comforted him, poured him tea and water, and patted his shoulder with a smile.

Darwin was still very peaceful, and said: "When Mr. Marx talked about public ownership just now, did he mean that primitive society had to implement public ownership because of extreme scarcity, and if modern society implements public ownership of property, it would be a kind of regression, right?" ”

Since the previous pair of opponents had broken up, Marx had to come on the field in person, saying: "The trend of thought that takes public ownership to the extreme is a misunderstanding of the ** theory, and private property still needs to be respected, but the public ownership we mean by the public ownership of the means of production, the factories belong to everyone, the wages you earn are your own, the land is public, and the grain produced by the land is your own." This guarantees fairness in economic life, and profits are not concentrated in the hands of a few capitalists. There will be no underconsumption. From a macro point of view, such an economy will develop very rapidly, and the living standards of all the people will also be greatly improved, which is also the conclusion I have come to when I think about the nature of capital. ”

Industrial banker Samuel? Smith joined: "What is the nature of capital? ”

Marx finally threw out his famous "theory of surplus value": "The driving force of capitalist development arises from the exploitation and alienation of laborers in the process of capital reproduction. The capitalist pays the laborer at market prices, but the real value of the goods produced by the laborer during the prescribed working hours exceeds the wages received. This part of the value in excess of wages is appropriated by the capitalists without compensation. I call this part of the value 'surplus value'. Since the capitalists monopolize the means of production, the laborers cannot produce the most, so they can only sell their own labor power for the capitalists to exploit. ”

Smith: "Ho ho, Mr. Marx didn't be a capitalist, did he?" Mr. Engels has a factory, maybe you know better. I would like to remind both of you of a fact that may be overlooked by the proletarians - that what you call 'surplus value' may be negative! Because not all investments and factories will make money. Let's go to the Lloyds Insurance Market, where insurance financiers are like actors who walk the tightrope with miscellaneous things, a shipwreck, a fire, a hurricane, a war, can make the capitalists lose their money and even go bankrupt.

Mr. Marx has just mentioned the overlord of the Age of Discovery, England. Everyone knows how dangerous it is to go to sea, right? A large number of captains, capitalists, are composing heroic epics for the rich and powerful England with their lives. Why is Captain Cook so popular with the people of England? Because he's a hero. Dear proletarian leaders and comrades, it is not you proletariat that produce heroes, it is not you who pay for your toil, blood and sweat, and rich people are servants of capital.

I'm talking about my stake in Downing's British Steel. Downing invented a new steelmaking technology that swept the ironmaking industry by storm, and as far as I know, all the steelworks in Birmingham went out of business. This time I won with Downing, but only this time. Maybe next time I'll lose all the money I've earned. This is the work of the capitalist, and the investor may not work as hard as the worker, but our labor is also real, and the vision of investment is the labor of the capitalist, which is a matter of life and death. When a capitalist goes bankrupt, he will be hit much harder than a worker who has been fired, and he will often fall into a slump and fall to the bottom of his life. ”

Wood clapped his hands and applauded Smith's brilliant debate, it seemed that he was still too impatient, there was no way, Wood was a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it was his job to be careful about the government, and it was also a matter of pride, and it was strange that he was not angry about a theory that wanted to overturn the basic system of England as a whole.

Marx said nonchalantly: "Mr. Smith, I do not exclude the existence of such discerning and industrious capitalists as you, nor of capitalists who have gone bankrupt due to mismanagement, but my theory is not for some individual cases. It is impossible for the capitalists as a whole to suffer. They will never be able to lose their money and collapse at the same time. In other words, the bourgeoisie will always control the means of production, control the parliament, and prevent the workers' representatives from becoming parliamentarians, and even if a few parliamentarians think about the workers exceptionally, it will not change the weak position of the workers. Without struggle, there is no fairness. ”

If we count the number of people, the capitalists really have to suffer in the face of the word "democracy" forever. Marx's phrase "the capitalist as a whole" wiped out all the intellectual and physical labor of the capitalist, and it is true that if the capitalist wants not to work, he can just keep his money in the bank, buy public bonds, and buy stocks with reliable dividends.

Darwin said: "Mr. Marx, you say that primitive society is public ownership, is there any evidence? Or hypothetical. ”

Marx: "It's hypothetical, but it must be true, because when there is scarcity, people starve to death if they are not evenly distributed." It's like a big family, everyone is hungry, and the result must be an equal share of food. From this stage, the productive forces will gradually rise, leading to the emergence of private ownership, and then rising, and in the end, when the material is extremely abundant, it will definitely return to public ownership, because there is no need for private ownership anymore, and everyone can use it as they please. Labor is no longer necessary, but a pleasure, when all physical work will be replaced by mental power, and even most of the hard mental work will be replaced by mechanical work.

The reason why I mention this primitive public ownership is to remind everyone that there was a time when there was a very fair time, and later, this fairness was drowned in the torrent of selfish desires, and history will eventually reproduce this kind of déjà vu social justice, and the sooner you realize this justice, the stronger the economy of the country. That is to say, the higher the public ownership, the stronger the consumption power, and the more developed the social productive forces. ”

Darwin: "I don't see the inevitability of the superiority of public ownership. Since you also appreciate the theory of evolution, let's discuss why all animals forage for themselves and raise their children, instead of forming a communal community? Could this be the only way to survive that has an advantage? ”

Debating the theory of evolution with biologists, Marx had to be extremely cautious and cautiously say: "Ants and bees seem to be publicly owned, right?" ”

Darwin followed: "Yes! But the ants and bees that live together are a family. Just like our human society, the family can be publicly owned, and everyone spends the money they earn, and now many families do this. But what you mean by public ownership is the whole society, that is, one group of ants shares their food with another. This is impossible, and there will even be a tragic war between them. The call for the world's proletarians to unite in the Declaration is equivalent to a call for all ants to unite and share the world's food, which is obviously unrealistic. There is always a competition for survival between groups. ”

Worthy of being a master he respected, Wallace gave a thumbs up, and that's how he felt about public ownership.

Marx was not in vain, he was about to speak, but Hugo actually spoke first: "But in fact, human beings can form a big family, right?" All members are trusting and close like a family. The advocate of the "Europa Federation" has a certain affection for public ownership, or at least it is an interesting theory.

Wallace said, "Mr. Hugo, my brother has not seen me for a few years, and if I tell my brother that we should spend the money we earn together, even if he agrees, my sister-in-law will not agree, because his family earns more than mine." Alas, even a real family cannot be publicly owned, how can it be imagined that the entire human race is publicly owned? ”

Alexandre Dumas: "What if you make as much as your brother?" Your sister-in-law has no opinion, right? ”

Wallace: "No, because I still spend more than my brother!" ”

Everyone laughed, bringing a brief burst of joy to the intense atmosphere.

Marx had to disturb everyone's pleasure and say: "As a reminder, it is the common ownership of the means of production, not the common ownership of property, that the workers do not earn the same amount, and that until the great abundance of material goods, they are to be distributed according to the quantity of labor, and I think that in the long run, on the whole, labour is the only measure of the value of different commodities, and the criterion of the value of the labourer, and the worker must be paid according to the quantity of labour." ”

Wood, who had indeed been Chancellor of the Exchequer, grasped an important point: "I have found that Mr. Marx likes to abstract different things into the same, and call them their essence, so I will also come to one - wage income is in fact the same as capital income, and the workers will not have a day when the salted fish will turn over?" What is it if a few people pool their money to set up a small factory? Is it of all mankind? So what else are they doing? Would your government allow such small factories to be stored? Do you know how many of these small handicraft workshops are there in the UK? If you don't let this kind of small factory exist, it will kill a large number of factories, even factories, let alone develop the economy. And if you allow such factories to exist, how do you define a small factory run by workers and a big factory run by capitalists? Public ownership of your means of production is completely unfeasible! ”

Engels: "The state only controls the core economic lifeline, and this can be done." ”

Wood smiled ambiguously and said, "Oh? The most core, that is, the most profitable, right? I tell you what is the most profitable, is to invite you to participate in this salon Lord Earl's British Telegraph Company and British Steel Company, these two companies that did not exist a few years ago, initiated by private individuals, have suddenly developed into the most profitable companies in Britain, and the Prime Minister has made them all state-owned, and all the shares are given to the people of Great Britain, haha, why is it so funny? ”

This sentence was so cruel that Engels seemed to hear his heart twitch.

Marx, however, was very firm, and said: "Mr. Windsor is a special case, he is a great industrialist who can change the whole industry, but this special case does not always exist, and the large enterprises organized by the state integrate more resources, and the whole country develops science and industry, and it will be an epic economic development." ”

Wood: "It's not an epic, there is no Earl of Cambridge, the British don't even know what wireless telegraphy is, the whole of England is built on personal heroes like the Earl of Cambridge, from the Jenny spinning machine to the steam engine, to the Britannia, to the Crystal Palace, without the capitalists there would be no powerful England." Like Mr. Watt, it is also a kind of capital to make money by licensing patents, but he can't run a business as exaggerated as the Earl of Cambridge. I am a member of the Cabinet, and I can tell you from personal experience that the country is not something that can be abstracted and essentialized, and it is absolutely impossible for me to plan with the prime minister how the economy will develop in the future, what kind of factories to open, and how many commodities to produce. Suppose that we in England do not allow capitalists to run enterprises, the British Telegraph Company and the British Steel Company will not have zài, only the Eurosteel Company and the Swiss Telegraph Company. Then England would be reduced to a slave state. Only by making money for the capitalists can the capitalists make money for the state, this is human nature, this is reality, and it is not possible to develop the economy by abstracting the capitalists into a class and the workers into a class, and then letting them pinch each other. ”

Marx: "If I were Prime Minister, I would devote all my strength to cracking the mysteries of wireless telegraphy and steelmaking methods, and even if Mr. Windsor was not in England, he could still catch up, how could one or two scientists and industrialists compete with the state?" ”

Wood: "It's useless for you to pour out all your efforts, you can't do it at all, because the big scientists and big capitalists have been scared away by the policies you have taken to power, and none of them have stayed in England, only the old, weak, sick and disabled remain." ”

He asked the great scientist Faraday: "Mr. Faraday, England is not allowed to run private factories, will you still stay here?" ”

Faraday is now not only a scientist, but also a shareholder of the power company, and the authentic capitalist, naturally, has stood on the side of the capitalist, and honestly said: "There is really nothing more motivating than private ownership, and the more elite the class, the more resources need to be possessed in order to do things." ”

Wood asked the chief engineer Brunel, "What about Mr. Brunel?" How so? ”

Brunel: "I don't care, as long as I can do my great work, I don't care who I work for, whether it's a capitalist or a government. But...... Personally, I don't represent all engineers, most engineers still want to develop freely, and artificially restricting the ability to open factories is unjustifiable. Imagine if I were to build a 50,000-ton ship and the government would not agree to it at all, then I would have to go to the capitalists, and if England didn't have it, then I would have to go. ”

Wood: "Look, the elite scientists and engineers here are not happy with England going in ridiculous directions. Mr. Marx and Mr. Engels, two provinces. ”

He glanced at Tang Ning again dissatisfiedly, and said, "Hey, why didn't Lord Earl say a word?" What attitude? I guess Mr. Marx and Mr. Engels would most like to hear your opinion. Come, it's up to you to give them the final blow! ”

Marx didn't want to convince these capitalists in the first place, and it didn't matter if the debate fell behind, but he wanted to hear Downing's opinion, to be honest, Downing's current prestige is so high that even Marx, who has a strong thinking ability, has to pay attention to it.

Downing smiled and asked, "Mr. Marx, what kind of country do you think the proletariat will first take place in order to gain power?" ”

Marx: "Only industrialized countries have a sufficient number of workers, so it should be in industrialized countries, like England, Belgium, Prussia, France, etc." ”

Downing: "My prediction is different from yours. First of all, I agree with you, the current parliamentary system in Britain and other countries is indeed beneficial to the bourgeoisie, and with the opening of the people's wisdom, there will be a day when the property restrictions on voters and parliamentarians will be completely removed, and even women will have the same political status as men. At that time, democracies were likely to have higher and higher welfare systems, because the proletariat was stronger. But to carry out full public ownership like the one advocated by ** is a seismic change, and this kind of change, in my humble opinion, will not happen in rich countries.

Why? Just like Mr. Marx's wonderful explanation of the peacock's long tail just now, a country's citizens' choice of system, just like the female peacock's choice of mate, has formed its own fixed view. Now, England is the richest and most powerful country in the world, and all the citizens of England are proud of their system, the constitutional monarchy, the jury system, the patent law, the House of Lords has the final adjudication, the House of Commons leads the legislation, the Royal Navy, Queen Elizabeth I who defeated the Spanish Armada, the Duke of Wellington who defeated Napoleon the Great, the overseas colonies, the Jenny spinning machine, the Watt steam engine, every famous name and historical term is engraved in the hearts of the citizens of England, proving the greatness of England, The capitalist system in England is as beautiful as a male peacock in the eyes of a female peacock.

Yes, I also agree that there are many historical processes that are materialistic and that capitalism cannot be subverted in England. On the contrary, those countries that are poor and white, and do not have a mature political system, will be attracted by the concept of public ownership. The proletariat has lost only chains, fight! Poor countries, defeated countries that suddenly lose huge reparations, may embark on this risky path. Rich countries, on the other hand, will embark on the path of high welfare under increasing pressure from the working class. Not now, but after the productive forces have developed greatly. For example, my current British steel company is very profitable, I like to give workers higher benefits, and in the future, I will also require my raw material suppliers to improve the treatment of workers. The same is true of the whole society, when the productive forces have developed to a certain extent, and no one with a little conscience will sit idly by and watch the people around him live so hard.

The concept of public ownership is very creative, and Mr. Marx was a great thinker. However, public ownership, even if it is only the public ownership of the means of production, the suppression of the most elite class is also very strict, like me who has an idea to subvert the industry, it is impossible to choose a country with public ownership, so, public ownership, just like the primitive society imagined by Mr. Marx, is very fair, and can solve the problem of eating all the people in an instant, but after eating, there is more and more surplus wealth, and the problem comes, either privatization, or forcibly suppressing the impulse of the people to invest and start a business, in short, State-led factories are limited, and the publicly-owned state can at most develop to a moderately developed chengdù, or in a certain aspect, such as a military development to the top but never reach the top. They have ceilings that cannot be broken through.

In addition, I do not agree with Mr. Marx's assertion that the vocation of capitalists is to exploit workers, the combination of capitalists and workers is voluntary and determined by the market, and the current market is dominated by simple laborers, as long as they can work, so capitalists do not care about the treatment of workers, there are many of them, and they will grab a lot of them, but as the machines become more and more advanced, the requirements for workers are getting higher and higher, and the prices of workers in the market are getting higher and higher. Like my current crystal factory, it is one of the best factories in the world, so it can also recruit the best skilled workers and engineers, which will become a norm in the future. （http：/／）。 I'd invite you two to take a look at the crystal factory, but you've probably all heard about it, well, it's true, and you're always welcome to come and see it.

I would also like to share my personal views on the attitude towards violent revolution. Or from an evolutionary point of view, violence is an unstable survival strategy, how can we say it? You see, even if you're stronger than anyone else, you can get hurt in a fight, right? As long as you are hurt, other creatures can overwhelm you. In reality, the same is true of power struggles, violence should be the last step that both sides are least willing to take, this is the right attitude, otherwise you will be easily injured, at least the newspaper will be shut down, or the worst will be arrested in exile, or even the death penalty. If I am engaged in politics, it is better to fight for seats, and then strike, non-violence, non-cooperation, and never speak lightly of violence.

Hehe, if you two take the road of legally fighting for the rights of workers, maybe I will support you, our England is the richest and most powerful country, and we should set an example for all countries, it is impossible for capitalists and workers to be close to each other, and it is still possible to meet each other without glaring. ”